Patricia Volonakis Davis

In Danger From the Outside World*

Comments

Somehow I highly doubt your boys lacked for their mother's affection.
Ha! you got that right. I sometimes wonder if I was born with an overactive mothering gene. My sons are all so grown now, between the ages of 20 and 25, that I have to keep it toned down a little. Believe me - it's very hard for me to do that, but for their sakes, I try. My husband helps me.

I think a man learns so much about "how to be a man" from the example his father sets and the approval his father gives him. Boys need an example to follow and will follow it whether its good or bad. Boys also crave approval from their fathers and unfortunately too many fathers are absent physically and/or mentally. Without approval from the father, the need to be prove oneself becomes stronger and stronger.

Wild at Heart

Four Pillar of a Man's Heart

Man of Steel and Velvet

Part of the 'absent father syndrome,' I think, comes from the way men learn to communicate and relate to each other. I know my husband, who loves his sons dearly, has trouble talking about certain things with them. Luckily, we provide a balance for each other, because, as I was telling Toe-Knee, I'm sometimes too much the other way. But, Hubs always worries that he will be 'interfering' if he sits down with them and has a heart-to-heart. He feels a more hands-off approach fosters independence and he has a point. But, if its over done, it can also foster distance, loneliness and confusion as to what it means to be a loving man. (How come you got your links to work so well and mne are still screwed up on my previous post? You're so much better at this than I am.)

Get your husband Wild At Heart....its my husbands FAVOURITE book. He has read it several times. He grew up with a father who worked all the time and didn't really get a chance to start knowing his father until he was an adult. As it is, his father has a hard time expressing himself......mainly because he grew up with an absent father.....and so on.

Its a cycle of madness because each generation is doomed to repeat because no generation is equipped from the previous generation. That is how I came to forgive my parents because I took at look at the parents they grew up with and so on....and realized that all parents are trying to do the best they can with what they got given. I know a lot of fathers are trying to find their way in the dark.

it's easy to forget that men have it hard too...

i still say women have it harder, though :P we have to put up with them, you know! :P hehehe...

You're such a naughty girl, Grrrace. You really are. LOL. ; )

Seriously though, when I was young, I thought we had it harder than men. Now that I have been around five sons/stepsons, I realise their struggles are just as hard, if not harder in some ways than our own. This piece is one of three parts, the last part describes when we lost our son( mystepson) Greg. Every man in the family, including my husband's three brothers was devastated. Yet out of nine men, only three of them succumbed to tears, through they'd struggled hard not to.

"Its a cycle of madness because each generation is doomed to repeat because no generation is equipped from the previous generation. That is how I came to forgive my parents because I took at look at the parents they grew up with and so on....and realized that all parents are trying to do the best they can with what they got given. I know a lot of fathers are trying to find their way in the dark."

Such a compelling commment. I will search that book on Amazon and see if it is something I can get my husband to read. if not, I can always give it to my sons. Thanks for the recommendation.

i am bad. i know :P hehe.

men really do have it rough... especially having met steve, i really do respect men a whole lot more than i used to.
Yeah, we found two nice ones. But, of course some out there are real d**ks! : )
oh, you don't have to tell me that! :) hehe.
I know, but it's all in the past for us now. (As they say,"Good riddance to bad rubbish.")
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I love where your heart is Partricia. This post is wonderful and speaks to the general breakdown of the family unit in our society. However, I wonder if people here might be able to agree that Western Culture is at a much bigger crossroads on this issue than one of say, absent father syndrome. You see, I believe that our whole concept of 'family' is being tested and I also think it is a good thing. I feel that western thought promotes the conjugal family as an ideal and that a patriarchal presence is essential for optimized rearing of young boys (and even girls). I guess this is where my lack of social conservativism rears its ugly head because I simply don't buy into that notion. I believe that in other societies, matrifocal and consanguineal familial configurations have proven their worth. And in these types of families the male is not as dominating a factor in a child's upbringing as the strength of the extended family or social circle. I'm sympathetic to Max Weber's (among others') thinking that modern marriage and thus family structure was a product of religious-cultural values provided by Christian and Roman Catholic Canon Law which dictated a family structure. One could argue that religion has killed any thought that other ways of rearing children might actually work. I'm not posting to argue religion as a reason for the propagation of a faulty family structure, but it certainly is a potent idea. Ok, so I hope people don't misunderstand, because I really think that a male presence is definitely necessary to any child. If I thought otherwise I would be saying that male's weren't necessary; which I'm not. I'm simply saying that as western society stress-tests the historical and moral constraints of Christianity, Judaism, and Roman Catholicism we, as a whole, need to start taking responsibility for finding alternatives to providing positive male influence in our children's lives. Why do we assume that a father is the only means by which a young boy (or girl) can receive valuable physical and emotional support and guidance. Not every child will have the benefit of that one positive male influence. In fact I would say even in traditional conjugal families that is a rarity- so how? It must be possible. So lastly, one thing I think would help is if we at least began by concentrating on broadening and strengthening our familial kinships as well as working at 'community' and better community strength. If we did at least that might have the beginnings of something powerful. Men will be men, and as animals we are still set up like hunter and gatherers (to be cliché). We can choose to fight evolution or we can work with it. No? Ha! Well, perhaps in this way-too-big-of-a-comment I've had something thought provoking to say, or perhaps I'm simply full of it. Hopefully it's the former- LOL!!!

Umm.. that last sentence... "Men will be men, and as animals we are still set up like hunter and gatherers (to be cliché).", yeah, that should read "Men will be men, and as animals they are still set up like hunter and gatherers (to be cliché)." - yeesh.
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Sad but true. Hopefully it will change one day

"One could argue that religion has killed any thought that other ways of rearing children might actually work."

One could indeed, and I'm not afraid to say it. Though I mean (and I think you do, too) organised religion. as opposed to a belief in a God. Your comment is valid and well-thought out. My idea is our entire societal structure is dysfunctional. We really have assigned only certain allowable emotions to males an certain ones to females. We all go along with the idea of the "strong" male, to a greater or lesser degree. Perhaps it does go back to our prehistoric ancestors and perhaps it developed for other reasons. The thing is: it's no longer valid and time for a change. Other structures do work, you're right there as well, in my opinion, anyway, and role models can be found through different avenues But, the media is at fault too, and many of our young men find too many of their role models there. BTW- This post is Men as Victims. My next post is Men as Aggressors (bullies) and the last is Men as (trying to find) Heroes

Got it.No worries. It was a brilliant comment.
I hope so too. Unfortunately, if it happens, it happens too late to save all the men we now know and love..... : (
I'm going to have to think about this one. I've raised 4 sons and a daughter pretty much by myself, and one of the things we all longed for was a greater presence and participation by their father. I think it's too easy to blame religion, organised or not, for men being victims of society's expectations of acceptable male behavior. Men were the workers. Women bore the children. Let me think some more. I almost know where I'm going.

Yes, organised religion, you got it :-)

No, one is separate from the other, really. I know and understand exactly what you mean. One is societal expectations and the other is familial obligation.You have children and you are responsible for caring for them, whether you are male or female. period. If your ex didn't do that, he was negligent. What Michelle and I are talking about is how did these mores discussed in the post evolve and why do we accept them when they are no good for either sex?

Oh... just to clarify, I wasn't trying to blame organised religion. I stated that blaming organised religion would be a potent argument or idea. My comment was really directed at how our traditional ideas about family are changing as people test the value system put in place by those religions. That is quite different from blaming. For example, think about same-sex spouses (female) for a moment... I wonder what they would have to say about the lack of male presence in a family.

I knew what you meant. It makes sense and as I said to Beaner, we were not discussing any of these as a replacement for, or an excuse for not needing a father's love or attention. Whether a boy has his father's love or not has nothing to do with this separate social male issue. Foxsy's remark also had to do with men not being able to express their love, not for those who ignore thier responsibilities.....

Yes, whether they don't know enough to express or they can't express are both things that, I think are part of that cycle of madness foxy was talking about. I think about many European and middle Eastern cultures where males hugging and kissing affectionately whether it be friends or family is quite commonplace. They do this to show love, familial love, the kind of love that says "I care about you, you mean a lot to me". I maintain that nuclear families (which we're seeing less and less of) might tend to isolate males generation-to-generation propogating that self reliant never-let'em-see-ya-cry way of being. I really do believe that greater social circles and exteneded family would see more men finding their emotional roots again. :-)

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This is a great post and you indicate very well how boys and men have to follow certain stereotypes ordinated by society. Even though I live in a Greek family where my mother still hugs me and shows me her sentiments, my father lives up to the "role-model" of The Man with some exceptions. For an instance, it's common knowledge that in the Meditteranean countries, we express our feelings more openly than other "civilized" countries. I know I do, because in the end what counts more? A "sanitized" life or a full one?

I could never keep my emotions a secret, yet I have kept my manhood. Being a man doesn't mean that I have to live without emotional expressions. Yes sometimes I haven't shown my fear, but only to protect the people I love and due to a certain sense of responsibility.

I believe that a man is mostly defined by his lifestyle and how he keeps up to his obligations, his responsibilties and his dreams. A man is the person who makes a statement with his life, who makes things work his way and is not afraid of his emotions. Embracing our sentiments can make us full and it has nothing to do with being a macho man, a metrosexual, a retrosexual, a homosexual or an asexual.

You are right to a point I think.
We aren't allowed to express emotions but, whilst I know you are saying it nicely and with our best interest at heart there is a difference between the sexes that can't be denied.
I can say that a lot of men feel like we are being neutered right now. It isn't so much that we aren't allowed to show emotions but that we are being replaced in almost every arena by women.
We used to have tribal areas that we could call male to vent our feelings - football is a prime example - but now that we are forbidden from expressing the testosterone fuelled aggression and once male dominated areas are populated by women no matter how much they are unwelcome - the fear that is in every man and that needs release is trapped. As a result we are in danger of becoming one of two things - either emasculated shadows or rampant sexual and physical predators.
Let us be men and we will do it right. Make us women and we become monsters.
A TV series I saw recently defined bravery as a guy who wakes in the morning - looks at his wife and kids and does not run away. That is the root of our fear. We all want to run away. No one likes responsibility. Thats why role models are becoming scarce - we no longer have a role to play in many households.
This is such an interesting point, if you read Ilias K's comment directly below yours. In case you don't know him, Ilia is from Greece and is 25 years old. I was will impressed by the insight and depth of his comment, regarding manhood. And I think he's a great example of the point you're making!

Sometimes when I read your blog, I know you're going through some normal, age-related struggles right now, asking yourself questions about who you are, what you want and where you are going in life. But, believe me, you know more about life than some fifty year olds, if you can write a comment like this, that, to me, displays an incredible insight. My favourite parts are, " What counts more? A "sanitized" life or a full one?" and" Being a man doesn't mean that I have to live without emotional expressions. Yes sometimes I haven't shown my fear.....due to a certain sense of responsibility.... a man is mostly defined by his lifestyle and how he keeps up to his o